Barack Obama

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on November 6, 2008 at 6:54pm

I love it when you write,
"Canuck out."

It makes me chuckle and I don't even know what it means.

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on November 5, 2008 at 11:10pm

Uncanny. A couple hours after writing this post and I read:
"U.S. Airstrike Reported to Hit Afghan Wedding" with 40 civilians killed (including women and children) and 28 others wounded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/world/asia/06afghan.html?_r=2&...

Enough said?

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Permalink Reply by Hermann and Adel Du Plessis on November 6, 2008 at 1:49pm

Nice blog guys!

Good discussion between Sam and John.

I think sometimes we need to see all the other issues at stake as well. Like war? How many kids have Bush killed in other countries totally innocent.

I agree abortion is totally against humanity, but voting red we sometimes put a "pro-war, pro killing the innocent" in office as well!

I guess that sometimes I just don't get American politics!

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on November 6, 2008 at 2:06pm

Hermann, Interesting observation. Just as pro-choice is not always pro-abortion, pro-war is not always pro-killing the innocent.

But you're very right...It seems that for some killing an evil (terrorism, abortion) permits the inhumanity of killing the innocence in the process.

Either way you go, it may be a matter of choosing one's poison.

Thanks for the contribution.

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Permalink Reply by Karla Elisa on November 6, 2008 at 6:50pm

I for one am very proud today, knowing a thoughtful, sensible, intelligent man will be taking office to represent me as an American.

A man that has put a kinder, gentler face on this nation. A man that has inspired unity and participation by so many.

I worked on the Obama campaign in my city. It was incredible. The positive energy flowing from our collective efforts is not to be discounted. Very spiritual stuff.

And as each one of us put our best foot forward as representatives for Obama, I was reminded of how I try to do this for Christ each day. Understandably, my mission for Obama demanded far less, lol.

But I'm pleased to have participated and even more so that WE were successful.

It IS a historic and proud moment for both President Elect Obama & the American public.

Now....I've read some of the comments here on this site and I supposed I am not surprised to find the abortion issue being raised.

While I respect others rights to their opinion, I do take issue with this term 'abortionist' being bandied about and assigned to Obama. It simply is not true.

Furthermore, legislating morality is for me, a sensitive topic. As a woman I most certainly resent any law being passed that limits my choices. As I understand it, life begins when the 'breath' of life is instilled in us...that is to say, at birth.

Mosaic law never addressed abortion. There is a law dealing with the fine a man would incur if he caused a woman to lose her 'fruit' but it is only if he costs the WOMAN her life, that an 'eye for an eye' comes into play. Certainly if God viewed this same fruit as a life he'd have called it that and it would merit the same punishment as one received for killing someone.

But I do believe as the fetus develops and nears the time of birth you would seem to have a 'live' person, and even children born up to 4 months early can survive.

So I guess from where I sit, a child that has reached the stage where they can survive outside the womb is not something anymore...it's someone.

But the morning after pill and 1st trimester abortions are a non issue for me.

And truth be told, I am more in favor of focusing on those lost souls already here...it seems to me they are crying out for mercy and we don't know they will be taken up by God necessarily, as we do believe to be the case with infants (and those who see this extended to the unborn).

I realized I have just debuted here and I've picked a political hot potato to start with but I am feeling pretty zen with what I've just said, so go ahead. Pile on and tell me where I've gone astray....

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on November 6, 2008 at 7:04pm

Karla, Nice entry into the sphere of M.
Sounds like you had lots of fun working for the campaign. I can imagine it must have been a rush to work so hard and win.
Congrats.

I trust you'll get some input on your comment.

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Permalink Reply by Wesley Tan on November 7, 2008 at 3:46am

Karla, congratulations on contributing to such an incredible culmination that once again epitomises the inherent potential of humanity. You must feel so proud!

I don't pretend to be an sort of Scriptural expert on the topic of abortion, but I will say this - I believe in the inherent sanctity of human life, for no other reason than that we're taught in Genesis that each and every single one of us is the 'Imago Dei', the image of God. This has natural consequences - if I believe I'm made in the image of God, that means every single other human being is as well, and I should treat them as such.

Now I live in Australia so I'll be citing whatever information I've been able to scrounge up - but from what I've heard Obama is pro-choice, which as Alex so insightfully highlighted isn't synonymous with pro-abortion. I'm not sure exactly to what extent he's pro-choice, but I believe that I choice should be available in some circumstances, such as in pregnancies resulting from rape and where the mother's health is at risk.

I know of a girl whose mother, because she was Catholic, chose not to have an abortion, and paid in the ultimate price in the end. As a result, her father became an alcoholic and abandoned the children, and she has been ostracised and blamed by her 3 siblings for that loss. She to this day bares immense scars and guilt and blame... and has on numerous occasions attempted suicide. Only the constant reminder that her mother paid the price for her to live so she should make something of her life keeps her going.

I think when we put a human face to an ideological position religious fundamentalism becomes a harder position to hold on to. I believe God loves every child. I believe that He has a purpose and a plan for every single one. But I also believe He loves her father and those other 3 children who, as a result, have had their lives turned into living hell as a result.

Similarly, not every rape victim has the incredible social support network of a church or similar belief system to assist them as they not only recover from such horrific and undeniable trauma but really consider the nature of what they now carry within them as a result. Can we really be so flippantly judgemental and condemnatory, or should we respond as Christ did - WITH LOVE!

Harking back to the woman so unceremoniously dumped at the feet of Jesus as He was teaching at the Temple Court who had been caught in the very ACT of adultery - "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." He gave her the gift of no condemnation first, before commanding that she go and sin no more. From my experience I think too often the church has gotten that the wrong way around.

Just my two cents.
Peace. Love. Justice.

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Permalink Reply by Karla Elisa on November 13, 2008 at 6:46pm

Hi Wes,

You said something that I failed to articulate in my post:

"I think when we put a human face to an ideological position religious fundamentalism becomes a harder position to hold on to."

That is extremely important and I think we would all do well to consider that point. We cannot pretend to know what the woman considering this option is up against.

And it is difficult for me to imagine any woman being flippant with this decision, Christian or otherwise.

What frightens me I think more than anything is should this avenue become unavailable, we will see women return to the day of the coat hangers and other back alley options.

Education and access to health resources/birth control for women seems a more viable way to reduce the number of abortions nationally.

Anyhow, thanks, I really appreciate your input on this matter.

Shalom

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on November 13, 2008 at 7:01pm

Karla,

Just a couple of quick qs...



It may be difficult for you to imagine someone being flippant, but does that mean this doesn't happen? I can definitely imagine flippant young men forcing their pregnant girlfriends into decisions they wouldn't otherwise make.

Also aren't references to the days of coat hangers just a scare tactic meant to shut down conversation? [Not on your part, but on the movement that creates those talking points]. I mean, I can't even find a metal coat hanger anymore. All of ours are the thick plastic kind. With the technology available today, why would anybody go back to the mid 19th century for a technique of ending the life of an baby? Certainly, even illegal abortions would much, much safer today. That's what makes it seem to me that this imagery is just a tactic.

Interested in your thoughts on these honest qs...

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on November 13, 2008 at 8:26pm

Still get metal coat hangers at the dry cleaners. Luckily. I use them to break into my car when I lock the keys in.

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on November 13, 2008 at 9:15pm

well, there you go.

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Permalink Reply by Luke Savage III on November 26, 2008 at 1:18pm

Perhaps someone (more educated than I) should discuss this in the context of what happens when we try to make something illegal that has been legal for years. I know there are good historic examples (alcohol comes to mind) of it not being very successful, and causing more problems than it helps.....Also, if the goal is to change hearts (rather than change laws), should we be fighting for moral ambiguity and freedom to live as Sojourners in this world? Should be we on the side of everything being permissible, and then strive to teach/live what is beneficial, thus showing people a better way? If we thought like this, what walls would be torn down?

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