Spirituality vs Religion

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Permalink Reply by Rob Nicholls on October 17, 2007 at 8:08pm

I have recently read a book, "Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places" by Eugene Peterson that he sub-titled "a conversation in spiritual theology". He describes the term as representing "the attention that the church community gives to keeping what we think about God (theology) in organic connection with the way we live with God (spirituality)." I like this understanding of spirituality. It seems to be about living out. The question then arises; living out of what? If we live out of religion (doctrine and beliefs) we can lead a "good" life and obedience is a good thing. However, that doesn't seem all that life-filled. The best kind of living out would be living out of relationship so we have to start there. It always comes back to who or what is most important in our life and what Jesus said about your heart being where your treasure is. So spirituality would come down to how we live demonstrates who we love.

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on October 23, 2007 at 10:08am

A Challenge

I'd like to present a challenge to step into spirituality. Take a trip: near or far; common or not; familiar or not; pre-destined or not, and go via the Spirit's prompts. Preresiquite: Walking toward God.

I mean if you go to home from work via a common, routine route, cast that aside and dig deep to hear the the Spirit's prompts on which way to go. Forget your way. Complete abandonment of your Self, of your desires. If deep down, that little voice leads you off the freeway seven exits early, through an affluent neighborhood--don't be afraid, do it; then through a poor neighborhood, beware of darkness but follow through. To a bookstore, go in. To a particular book, buy it.

The goal isn't the destination, but the journey--[hopefully led by the Spirit]. And not just what you might learn or discover along the way, but an exercise in faith and obedience. Most importantly it's getting to recognize the Voice.

How do you know the voice to be the Voice. That's certainly important and I'm sure that voice "sounds" different to each of us, however the Voice will never lead you into evil nor direct you to bad nor lie nor be contradictory to the Word. I mean if the voice is leading you to a strip club chances are great it's not the Voice.

If you catch my drift, the Spirit can lead you--or you can lead yourself. You do have that right certainly. If you can follow the Voice in little things--like turning right instead of left--even if your habit and your own mind is telling you, "No, we always go left," or "That doesn't make sense, turning right will take me five minutes longer to get there,"--you never know what it is that is around the corner for your enlightenment, mission, or simply to avoid something detrimental--that you would miss doing things your way.

Then apply this same free fall, abandonment to life--to following the Voice of the Spirit in life, you may just find how silly "our" life really is, how insignificantly fleeting a "career" really is, or "our" desires. You may find that the Spirit opens situations and puts people in your path that truly are important and truly the desire of the Spirit.

(And yes, I do refer to the Voice, the Spirit, Christ, Jesus, God as all one and the same.)

Bon voyage.

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on October 17, 2007 at 10:06pm

"What do you think?"

I'll tell you what I feel, what I sense.

I tend to think of myself as a spiritual, mystical being--as many people are. When I'm driving--with the intent or habit of turning left at Oak Street and that little voice whispers ever so slightly, "Turn right," I don't question it or try to make reason of it. If it the Little Voice says to turn right, I tend to turn right. If the little voice coaxes me to walk up and strike up a conversation with someone, so be it. If I'm compelled by the Little Voice to face up to something or even make a confrontation even though every fiber of my biological body is writhering in resistance, you got to do what you got to do. That's traversing in spirituality.

If you're reading the bible and the words unveil a much deeper meaning than the sum of the actual words--and you "get it" deep down in your soul beyond logic and convention--this happens on a spiritual realm. As I said in a different post the whole thing with Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden very likely was as much about spiritual dimensions as it was physical and carnal. Adam and Eve didn't walk with God some footpath in Iraq, this was human spirituality at its fullest! A whole different dimension. And likely no human has had that kind of full spirituality since. Christ aside of course, but even that had to be different.

What makes us so amazing of a creature is the fact that we are biological beings--endowed with the image of God--with spirituality. Spiritual, biological beings, so intertwined that when one suffers, so does the other. One in good spirit is a much healthier person. We experience things that angels and demons can not. Yet we communicate--or have the potential to communicate within the mystical realms with spiritual beings and God.

Religion on the other hand is man trying through achievement to be right with God. And that's whack. That's the root of paganism.

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Permalink Reply by Jon Olson on October 18, 2007 at 4:07pm

At this point in my thinking I don't understand spirituality and religion as mutually exclusive. I think that they are related and in this current era there is much reaction against religion and in some ways rightly so. Spirituality that is not grounded and anchored in truth is mush and really nothing at all. I am still exploring that realtionship in my own life.

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Permalink Reply by Boho Fau on October 19, 2007 at 3:16am

Underneath the labels they both feel one in the same to me. Claiming either one represents a desire to belong to something bigger, right? But in our quest to find truth in that something bigger we acquire religious behavior as a result of becoming more spiritual. So you can't really separate the two? I guess to answer the question, we just engage each other and the rest plays out like the 'Forrest Gump' movie. We affect each other in ways we can't imagine without even knowing that we're bringing each other closer to the truth we seek. There is just to much on the wrong things. My name is James... and I'm a compulsive rambler!

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Permalink Reply by Alex McManus on October 19, 2007 at 8:33pm

Provocative thoughts all.
Paul and John, you seem to agree that religion shouldn't be " man trying through achievement to be right with God"

This brings something to mind. While that seems to be a commonly held definition of religion in our circles, I wonder why it's whack. What can be so bad about a person seeking to be right with God whether through achievement or otherwise? Isn't that way better than not trying to be right with God? Our "anti-works" understanding of the gospel may keep us from recognizing a relative good?

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on October 20, 2007 at 9:50am

It seems to me "religion" as ascribed to "man trying through achievement to be right with God" is anti-Christian in its very nature. A truth--salvation is by grace alone. You can not work toward it—in the least. Your deeds good, bad or otherwise don't rock the stars. The problem with "religion" is it allows pride to impede upon grace. "I go to church every Sunday. I tithe 12%. I serve 25 hours a week... I MUST be more godly than Joe Six-Pack who only goes to church Christmas and Easter!--even though [secretly and won't admit it even to myself] I lust Joe's wife and wish I had that boat of Joe's. Heck I even tithe more than the pastor!"

Now I'm not saying that good works is in vain, nor should religion be confused with repentance. By all means seek God—through repentance—not religion.

The big difference for clarity sake of discussion is what's really going on inside--within. Some Mafia members are religious, yet they are unrepentant—the cup's filthy on the inside. Some "non-churched" individuals have truly turned their path and though they may still be plagued by their immoral nature they ARE heading toward righteousness—shedding their old nature bit-by-bit—whether or not they partake in religious rites and rituals.

Spirituality in and of itself will NOT save you either. Spirituality is a conduit for inner peace and connectedness with God. Spirituality is walking in God's neighborhood. Religion could be spiritual—IF it is a result of spirituality, not the other way around. If it is a fruit of new nature. It's a by-product of repentance--not a means to salvation. It's [James'] "works" produced by new nature.

I wouldn't say religion and spirituality are necessarily opposed to each other, just as I wouldn't say spirituality and going to church are opposed to each other. It's not one or the other. It's just they are not even on the same planet, or rather the same dimension.

"why are folks allergic to "religion"?

I think it's because a lot of people have been fed religious bull roar. "The more you give to the church, the more God will reward you," "Follow Christ and life will be prosperous," "All your troubles will go away." And when troubles don't go away, allergic reaction. I think the most right on Christian book (aside from CS Lewis's books) is by far The Barbarian Way. When I read that it was like, "FINALLY!" No coddling. No religion. Mission.

"Underneath the labels they both feel one in the same to me. Claiming either one represents a desire to belong to something bigger, right?"

Again, I don't think they are the same. Different planets. Religion and repentance may be on the same planet. Spirituality is in a whole different stratosphere—that repentance (and possibly) religion has brought you to. Spirituality is a mystical experience, whereas religion is an earthly experience.

"What can be so bad about a person seeking to be right with God whether through achievement or otherwise? Isn't that way better than not trying to be right with God?"

It's not bad if not exclusive. James' "works and faith" was not either or. It was one the result of the other. It's not bad either as a concept toward better living—Christian or not. There are lots of people who do good, but that doesn't bring them any closer to salvation. On the otherhand there are "religious" people who walk out of church, order a war, I mean "crusade" and slaughter tens of thousands of innocent, men, women and children, I mean "collateral damage," to save the world from the "evil-doers."

To summarize, neither religion or spirituality is a means to salvation. God's grace is. And God's grace is not attained through religion or spirituality. Only through repentance--that is, religiously turning from your carnal nature, toward God. And God is not a carnal, physical being. God is spiritual, so spirituality really should be defined as communicating with God in God's realm. Prayer can be and should be spiritual, but mindlessly reciting the Lord's Prayer is religious. Contemplating what Jesus meant when he said to pray like this is spiritual, as opposed to some religious people interpretting the Lord's Prayer as "pray this." Works can be empty spirtually, if not a product of a repentant heart. And if works are not spiritual in nature, that is, if they don't come from a repentant heart—they really are just "nice things."

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on October 22, 2007 at 7:12am

Well I hate to sound like I'm attacking religion, and that's not my intent. I'm sure there is a place for religion. Certainly God gave the Israelites numerous religious rites to follow. And certainly Communion has its place in Christian faith. As well as baptism.

A quote: "When Christianity becomes another religion, it focuses on requirements. Just to keep people in line, we build our own Christian civilization and then demand that everyone who believes in Jesus become a good citizen." --Erwin McManus The Barbarian Way

It's this institutional religion that is whack. Following Christ is hardly institutional. It's as organic and natural as can be--once one has truly repented--then works and good deeds flow naturally. There is no need for religion--it all becomes as organic as breathing. One worships God as naturally as taking a breath. One doesn't set aside time and effort for God, or do a specific rite to be in touch. It just is! Always. In everything. Naturally.

Now if there are things that God compells you to do, that's another story. But for a church to say you must do this, that, or the other--to be right with God; to truly be a Christian; to be a good Christian; to belong to OUR church--just doesn't seem right to me.

Hope I didn't offend you you Paul. Didn't mean to. Just chirping in.

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Permalink Reply by Jaymes Lombardi on November 7, 2007 at 1:26pm

I guess for me it looks a bit like this.

If everything is spiritual...I mean if at it's core everything stems from the creative inclination of the spiritual deity we refer to as "God" (regardless of his methods in creating)...then at any point in life I have the potential of experiencing something truly "spiritual." Because at the core of all created existience is the intial spark coming from it's Creator. So at any given point I can have a moment where I experience true spirituality. Which I think is something other than "religion."

Religion is the attempt to explain the spiritual experience. It is the writings, and discussions, and even sometimes expressions through art, of an individual or collective group of people trying to put flesh and blood to what they have experienced outside the realms of their finite existence. The reality is that at some point anyone who has a spiritual experience has to use non-spiritual language to try and explain it. And that becomes religion.

An example...any individual or community of people that belive in interaction with a deity, believe in a particular practice to communicate with that deity...be it prayer, music, writing, going for a run...whatever. And in these moments a person or group of people might have a specific experience with God. But after that moment has passed, they later try and use human language to articulate what they experienced. So that other participants or spectators of that moment can maybe wrap their hearts and minds around that same spiritual moment.

Which I don't think anyone has a problem with...the attempt of an individual or community of people to use human methods of communication to articulate the non-human.

I think what most people have a problem with is that too often religion can become static. A singular experience is documented and then is not allowed to be revisited and rethought. I mean for me...I'm 23 (which I recongize means I probably know jack-shit...but I pretend to know everything!!!)...but I grew up in a pastor's house...which means for 23 years I was surrounded by religion. People explaining their experiences with the spiritual. But as I got older I was being told that religion wasn't able to be changed...even though I was beginning to experience spiritual moments that were leading me in a different direction.

Now I'm left with the journey of taking the religious dialogue I grew up with...and weighing it against my own spiritual experiences and discovering what parts of this religion still define my experience and what new religious rites, rituals, expressions will help people best understand my spiritual life and interaction with God.

So to me, religion and spirituality are two seperate ideas...but two ideas that cannot be seperated. As much as when somebody uses the word "religion" (especially myself) it seems to express a negative idea...I think that ultimately religion can be a beautiful journey of explaining my spiritual experience with my God.

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Permalink Reply by John Gnotek on November 12, 2007 at 11:33am

Jaymes,

Those are pretty profound thoughts (23 or not), but what you describe as religion (communicating one's spiritual experience) sounds to me like a description of "art."

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Permalink Reply by Jaymes Lombardi on November 12, 2007 at 10:08pm

Hey John.

Thanks so much for the compliment.

I totally think that art is a GIANT part of expressing spirituality. Which is why I would offer that the process of explaining one's spiritual experiences through the study of scripture to thus develop "doctrine" and "theology" can be seen as an expression of art.

Some people are radically moved by God and can only seem to express this experience through singing a song, writing a poem, painting a picture.

And others spend hours upon hours studying Greek and Hebrew, and history, and culture, just simply to wrap their minds around their experience with the completely different.

I wonder if both are an extension of art work. They both take incredibly skill and patience to accomplish...and both can dramatically influence people and bring them closer to understanding their spirituality.


...does that make sense?

much love.

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Permalink Reply by Jean on December 3, 2007 at 5:28pm

I've been exploring 'Spirituality for a while. Bit complicated to quote here (or too long) but you might like to try http://www.newingtonedinburgh.co.uk/Exploring%20Spirituality.html
I'm a novice in these things as you see!

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